In this episode of the podcast, Stratfor’s Fred Burton discusses counterterrorism and shares his story about Carlos the Jackal with New York Times bestselling author Brad Thor. They also discuss Thor’s latest book, Use of Force.
Learn more about Brad Thor’s 17 books, including Use of Force, at www.BradThor.com.
Transcript
Faisel Pervaiz [00:00:00] Hello. I'm Faisel Pervaiz, a South Asia analyst at Stratfor, and this podcast is brought to you by Stratfor Worldview, the world's leading geopolitical intelligence platform. Individual, team, and enterprise memberships are available at worldview.stratfor.com.
Fred Burton [00:00:30] Welcome to the Stratfor podcast. I'm Fred Burton, sitting in for host Ben Sheen. In this episode of the podcast, I sit down with New York Times bestselling author Brad Thor to swap stories about Carlos the Jackal, counterterrorism, and his latest book Use of Force. Thanks so much for joining us, and I hope you enjoy the conversation as much as I did. I'm here today with Brad Thor, who has a brand new book out called Use of Force. It is, as expected, a New York Times bestseller, and it is his 17th book, which is just amazing, Brad. Thank you so much for agreeing to chat with me today.
Brad Thor [00:01:15] Well, as you and I have had so much fun on Twitter, you know I'm a big fan of yours, Fred. It's a pleasure for me to be here.
Fred Burton [00:01:25] I think what prompted this idea was Joshua Cook, that's with us today, who suggested we get together, because I had tweeted out a picture of a book of mine called Chasing Shadows, which had a signature in there of the infamous Carlos the Jackal, an old terrorist who I know quite so well. And Brad, you were kind enough to retweet that, and you said, and I quote, because I'm going to hold this to you. You said, "I want to hear that story. Name the time and place and I'll buy drinks and dinner." I'm here to tell you that story, but I must say this, I still intend to take you up on that free dinner. Being an old cop and agent, as you know, you never turn down free food.
Brad Thor [00:02:18] That's right. Coppers love a free meal. I know that. I've got a lot of friends who are police officers. That offer still stands. But having been a big fan particularly of Robert Ludlam growing up and reading about Carlos the Jackal, when I saw you tweet that out, I said, "I've got to find out how did Fred get Carlos the Jackal's autograph." I am excited to hear the story.
Fred Burton [00:02:42] Well, this is it. My book Chasing Shadows was the story of a assassination by Black September of an Israeli air attache in my neighborhood when I was growing up, and so the book was written, and out of the blue one day, the FBI called me and said that they had read the book, and this was the FBI in Paris, and they said, "In looking at this, are there any loose ends that perhaps you would pursue if you were in our shoes?" Which, having been a former counterterrorism agent, which was quite intriguing to me, and I was quite frankly just glad that somebody took an interest in the case. And so I said, "Well, if I was in your shoes, FBI, I would try to go talk to Carlos the Jackal." He's in a French prison. And he swam in the same circles of the old radical Palestinian crew and was a gun for hire, and heck, when I was an agent back in the '80s, Brad, we had a dog-eared file on Carlos that was stuffed full of grainy surveillance reports and reports from Interpol and news clippings and so forth, and quite frankly, he was a guy that I thought we would never catch. Anyway, to make a long story short, I signed a bunch of books for the FBI and shipped them off to Paris, and about a month later, I get a book back, my own book back, where the FBI had given it to Carlos, and Carlos signed one of my books and mailed it back to me. And I get a big kick out of the fact he signed it with "My best revolutionary regards, Carlos." That's my story.
Brad Thor [00:04:41] It is an amazing story. He's such a fascinating character. And I don't know if people who are listening know just about his background and his upbringing and his, what did he have, two brothers, and I think they were all named, the parents named all, dad was a big fan of Lenin, and he named, he used Lenin's middle name, first name and last name to name his sons, and that's where Carlos the Jackal gets his first name. Isn't that the story there?
Fred Burton [00:05:14] That is the story, Brad. And again, you know, as a young agent in the '80s, we had this guy that was traveling around the world that was an assassin for hire that had been trained by the KGB, and as I had put in my tweet, he was the poster child of terror during that time frame, and for anybody that lived through those events, you know, there's a couple that come to mind, not only Carlos the Jackal, but certainly the events by Black September at the 1972 Olympics in Munich. Carlos knew all these folks. Gaddafi used him for hits. And I don't think we'll see anybody like him. I don't think anybody like him can exist today without being hit by a drone or a SEAL team taking him out.
Brad Thor [00:06:13] It's interesting how he was finally arrested. It was, what, in Sudan, he was either awaiting to go under the knife or had just had surgery or something like that? Isn't that how he got caught?
Fred Burton [00:06:27] Yes, it was actually August the 14th, 1994 and he had hunkered down in Khartoum. And again, that was a stateless government, and some intelligence surfaced that placed him there. And interestingly, in that same time frame, we had Osama bin Laden in Khartoum, which was a lawless state, much like Libya today, which, as you wrote about in your recent book Use of Force, you had this lawless area where all these terrorists could use as a safe haven.
Brad Thor [00:07:05] That's what I find fascinating about talking with you, Fred, because I write fiction. I do thrillers. And as you know, because I've tweeted it out, I'm a big fan of your book Ghost, and I've got multiple copies of it, actually. I've got a copy at home. I've got a couple copies in my office. And to see the detail in the stuff that you went through. A lot of people today, of course, are familiar with ISIS and Al-Qaeda, but, you know, before there was bin Laden, there was Abu Nidal. And it is amazing how much pain and misery has been inflicted on people around the world by these figures like Carlos the Jackal, whether it was chucking those grenades into that restaurant in Paris or any number of attacks and things that Abu Nidal was behind, or Carlos the Jackal. And these names, we just don't talk about them as much anymore. But what you said about not seeing another kind of Carlos the Jackal today because, you know, he'd get droned or a SEAL team would find him. Do you think that Carlos the Jackal, Fred, was exceedingly talented, that he was kind of the Michael Jordan of what he was doing or could the Soviets have trained up just about anybody to do that?
Fred Burton [00:08:25] I think he was the pick of the litter. I think, Brad, terrorists like him come around only so often, whether it is Ali Hassan Salameh of Black September fame, who the Israelis eventually assassinated in Beirut, or an Abu Nidal, or a Carlos the Jackal. There's a handful of these kinds of terrorists that I think it's important, which I think you do a great job of, too, of looking at, for any student of terrorism or student of history. And which brings me to a question, Brad, I'd love to ask you. I saw you dedicated your recent book Use of Force to Dewey Clarridge, who, as you and I both know, was a cold warrior from the CIA and this legendary spy master. And I must say, in reading your books, your characters are just phenomenal, and you have this character by the name of Reed Carlton, and I've got to ask you that question, was Reed Carlton or is Reed Carlton modeled after Dewey Clarridge?
Brad Thor [00:09:41] Yes. So it's funny, because so many people have, or I shouldn't say so many. Only a handful of people have picked up, actually read the dedication. I asked Ray Kelly's son in New York is a television morning personality, and he was the first one to say, "Oh yeah, I knew him. I'm friends with Ollie North, and that's how I knew him." And Dewey was a fascinating, fascinating man at a time where, I mean, he helped stand up the counterterrorism center at the CIA, and really had a great way, I think, of looking at not only the United States, but the threats, the true threats, posed by its enemies, and the lengths we needed to go to be able to neutralize those threats. And, you know, we'd have talks about some of the calcification and the bureaucracy at the CIA, and the ability of the OSS versus the CIA today, and all this kind of stuff. I mean, it was an absolute joy for me to know him. And one of the funniest things that I talked about when I was on tour is one of the first things Dewey ever asked me, and he had this kind of New England accent that I always mess up, but, "Brad, if you're ever going to fake your own death, how would you do it so people believe it?" And Dewey passed away recently, and it's funny, because I didn't attend the service, but I know several people that did. It was a pretty big deal. He was a legend. And that's one of the first things Dewey ever asked me. How, as a fiction writer, if I was going to fake somebody's death, how would I do it?
Fred Burton [00:11:24] That's a great story. As a young man assigned to work on the hostage problem in Lebanon, and I had the opportunity to see him walk through the halls at times at the counterterrorism center, and I was fortunate enough to have interviewed Dewey for my next book that'll be coming out in 2018, and it was one of those arrangements where I still felt like I should call him Mr. Clarridge. You know, he was always that kind of man, because when he was there at the agency, he certainly was the kind of person that you couldn't miss. We'll get back to the rest of my conversation with author Brad Thor in just a moment. But if you'd like to learn more about any of his 17 books, be sure to visit his website, bradthor.com. You'll also find plenty of extras like suggested cocktails and gear for each book. And if you'd like to hear more stories about my experience with Carlos the Jackal or writing about the attack in Benghazi, be sure to read my Lessons from the Old Case Files series on Stratfor Worldview. We'll include a link in the show notes. If you're not already a subscriber, you can remedy that by visiting worldview.stratfor.com. You can also learn more about my books Ghost, Chasing Shadows, and my most recent published book Under Fire: The Untold Story of the Attack in Benghazi. Now back to my conversation with Brad Thor. I'd like to talk, Brad, too, about your hero, who I think is just an amazing character as you write your books, Scot Harvath. And I know he's a USC grad, which obviously is also where you went to school. How did you design him?
Fred Burton [00:13:34] Meaning, is there a person like Dewy that you have used for him, or... I would just love to know that.
Brad Thor [00:13:41] Well, it's interesting, because when I was in college at USC, I lived off campus in an apartment building. And my job, how I made money when I was in college, was leasing units in this building. And I lived in the building. And my nextdoor neighbor was a fascinating guy that had come out of the US Army Ranger Battalions and had been part of a really, really cool unit in the 1980s. It was on the grounds of the old Delta Force compound. They used to call it the Fiesta Cantina, I understand because the buildings, they kind of resembled, I guess, southwest or Mexican architecture. But this neighbor of mine was in a unit. They had combed the Ranger Battalions looking for soldiers who had spoken German growing up, and still spoke German. And they called the battalions, found these guys, trained them up, and placed them in Berlin during the cold war. And they wore German clothing, purchased locally, all this kind of stuff. Their job was to blend in. And they had friendly Bierstub owners that would allow them to tear out the walls in the basements and hide things in the walls and re-plaster them, radio sets and weapons, krugerrands, they had all this stuff stashed all around Berlin, and if the Soviets ever came over the wall, their job was to slow them down. So that they...
Fred Burton [00:15:12] Very cool.
Brad Thor [00:15:13] They couldn't move through Europe quickly. A lot of guerrilla warfare things like this. Very cool. But what I loved about it was this melding of military and intelligence together. What these guys would also do over there, and as somebody involved with DSS, I'm sure this would be interesting for you, is that they were trained in architecture. When a new ambassador would come into an embassy and his wife would want to move walls around or whatever, these guys would come in and they would re-draw the plans so if there was ever a takeover, a hostage situation at an embassy or something like that, they had drawn the most current set of plans so that they could plan a, I don't know what you call, an operation to take the embassy back. I was fascinated by this person who was my nextdoor neighbor. He was terrific. Really, really nice. Very, shared with me a lot of stuff. And then my family, my cousins grew up on Coronado, so anytime you went down to Coronado, you'd see the SEALs training on the beach.
Fred Burton [00:16:12] Sure.
Brad Thor [00:16:12] I got to know through someone else Harry Humphries, who worked with Dick Marcinko as one of the original plank owners of SEAL Team 6, and Harry Humphries works on all the Jerry Bruckheimer movies. You always see his name in there. And he was extremely kind to me of giving me details about the SEAL teams and stuff like that. It was like any other business, networking. And so as I got to know these incredible men and heard stories of what they did, it all went into this stew for my main character, Scot Harvath. But Harvath is really, as much as my nextdoor neighbor and Harry had these great stories, there's a handful of people that I know that are actively out there taking the hurt to the bad guys around the world and doing some of this country's most dangerous business, and that's what Harvath is really based on, those brave people out there in some dark, dark corners doing hard, sometimes completely thankless work.
Fred Burton [00:17:05] Absolutely. That's amazing. I really appreciate that not only as a tremendous fan of your 17 books, Brad, but I'm sure folks that will listen to this will also be enlightened as to how you put that character together. And I'm glad you did mention the DSS, because I also read your short story The Athens Solution, which was published in 2006, and I remember turning, the first or second page, and all of a sudden we have DSS agents featured, which I appreciate you writing about the DSS, because at times it's the kind of organization that doesn't have a lot of media support behind the scenes, and a lot of folks still don't know what they do, and... Which is why I always try to promote my old organization, and when I put my book together on Benghazi, I wanted to highlight how difficult a job it is for people around the world to not only carry out these tough missions like Scott Harvath has to do, but also like these DSS agents that were hunkered down and trapped in Benghazi in literally a no-win situation.
Brad Thor [00:18:23] Yeah, that story, to this day, one of the biggest problems I've got with that whole thing is we were told that there was no way for us to refuel jets that we brought over from Italy. And I'm a big believer, I don't like to see the government waste any money, but it wouldn't have been a waste that night to have those jets going supersonic over Benghazi breaking every single window in that town, reminding those animals that the US was on the scene and they'd better not touch the annex, they'd better, they'd better completely pull back. And I think we should've flown those jets until they were dry, ditched them in the Med, and let the pilots eject, and we could've fished them out of the water. We could raise the money to buy new jets and build new jets. We can't bring those incredibly heroic dead Americans back to life, though. And I think that's probably one of the biggest failings, is that we weren't willing to just sacrifice that equipment to save American lives.
Fred Burton [00:19:14] Well said, Brad. I think you and I are both in sync on that. And I know we only got a few more moments, but I would like to talk a little bit about, I see you have one of your great books called The Lions of Lucerne that's going to be made into a film. What's the status of that?
Brad Thor [00:19:34] Well, so the status is, we've got a fantastic screenplay that was written by two incredible writers named Adam Cooper and Bill Collage. The most recent thing they did was the Assassin's Creed movie last year based on the video game. But they did Exodus: Gods and Kings. They've done a ton of great stuff. And then, having gone to school in Paris and having grown up with French, I've always been a big fan of the French director Luc Besson, and wanted to go to work with, for him, actually, out of college. And the director we now have on this project is a young director that Luc had discovered named Louis Leterrier. And Louis did the first two Transporter movies, made Jason Statham an action movie superstar. He also did Now You See Me about the Vegas magicians that robbed banks around the world. So he's done action, he's done taut thrillers, which is the perfect combination for us. So the reason I took more control over these projects in Hollywood instead of, it was 'cuz I didn't want to give them to a studio. I wanted to pick the writers. I wanted to find a director. I wanted to get everything just right to make sure that my readers get the same experience on the screen that they get reading the books. We're at that point now where we're starting to talk to different studios to figure out, okay, how do we now go... We've put together this great team. How do we go and mount the production now? That's the phase we're in, and in fact, I'm flying to California, so we've got a bunch of stuff going.
Fred Burton [00:21:07] That's amazing, Brad. I can't wait for that. That's going to be a blockbuster. And I would be remiss for not personally thanking you for... The one thing that folks may not know about Brad that listen to this is he certainly goes out of his way to help people. And Brad, I want to personally thank you for recognizing and helping me promote my first book Ghost, and talking about how you used some of that material as background research in the book you wrote called Blacklist. Which is why I'm always tweeting that out as my favorite story, because you were kind enough to do that. But that's just the kind of guy you are. People that want to buy any of your books, I know your website is absolutely tremendous. I love the gear. I love the challenge coins you have there. And that's www.bradthor.com. Is there anything else, or anything else that you want to direct anybody that's going to listen to this podcast to get any of your books?
Brad Thor [00:22:17] Well, the website is the best, bradthor.com. There's insights into the creation of each book. There's videos. There's all tons of, there's tons of great additional bonus content there. So I think that's the perfect place to start. And of course people can follow me @BradThor, B-R-A-D-T-H-O-R, BradThor, on Twitter, and then I'm also on Facebook.
Fred Burton [00:22:42] Thank you so much, Brad, for taking the time. I greatly appreciate that. You're a good friend and a better guy.
Brad Thor [00:22:49] I owe you dinner and drinks now that you upheld your side of the bargain and told me about how you got Carlos the Jackal's signature. We'll have to figure out when we're in the same city, and I'm buying.
Fred Burton [00:23:02] Well, I will certainly take you up on that, and we'll have to take a picture and tweet that out. Thanks again Brad and safe travels in California. My pleasure. Thank you. Thanks again for joining us for my conversation with New York Times bestselling author Brad Thor. You can learn more about his latest book Use of Force at bradthor.com. Again, you can follow Brad on Twitter @BradThor, and you can follow me @Fred_Burton. And for more geopolitical analysis, forecasting, and insight into global security developments, be sure to visit us at Stratfor Worldview. If you're not a subscriber and value an independent, sober approach to international affairs, go to worldview.stratfor.com
Fred Burton [00:24:01] to learn more about individual, team, and enterprise subscriptions. Subscribers can even contribute to the conversation by sharing their insights, thoughts, and other experiences in the forums section on Stratfor Worldview. And if you have a comment or idea for a future episode of the podcast, please email us at podcast@stratfor.com or give us a call at 1-512-744-4300, extension 3197. Also consider leaving us a review on iTunes or wherever you subscribe to the show. We appreciate your feedback. And for more geopolitical intelligence, analysis, and forecasting that brings global events into valuable perspective, follow Stratfor on Twitter @Stratfor. Thanks for listening.
